PODCAST | The Tension Between Self-Care & Self-Denial (feat. Alan Frow)

[TAG5]

Resources:

Get a copy of Psalms for a Saturated Soul: An Ancient Guide to Emotional Health
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60853224-psalms-for-a-saturated-
soul

Transcript:

Christa Neidig:
Welcome to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Christa Neidig, manager of marketing and business development here at Vanderbloemen. In today's podcast, our executive search consultant, Rick Callahan, talks with Alan Frow. Alan is a leader on the pastoral team of Southland's Brea Church in California, and he serves on the global leadership team of the Advanced Movement of Churches. He's also authored multiple books such as his latest work, Psalms for a Saturated Soul: An Ancient Guide to Emotional Health. In this conversation, Rick and Alan discussed negating tension between self-care and self-denial. Alan also emphasizes the importance of wholeness and health, and how it's foundational to ministry. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Rick Callahan:
Well, welcome to the Vanderbloemen podcast. I'm Rick Callahan. I'm one of Vanderbloemen's consultants that meets with churches and candidates around the country. And I'm delighted to be joined today by Alan Frow. Alan is the pastor of Southland's Church in Brea, California down in SoCal. And I met Alan for the first time at the Advanced Network National Gathering. I'm a part of a church that's a part of the Advanced Network, and he's on the global leadership team with Advance. And I met him as he was talking about how to navigate this tension between self-care and self-denial. So I'd love to just have a conversation with Alan about that today. So welcome, Alan.

Alan Frow:
Thanks, Rick. Fantastic to be on your podcast. And great to meet you a few weeks ago and to be able to reconnect. I'm glad to do that.

Rick Callahan:
Yeah, excited and been looking forward for this conversation. I think when we talked about doing it, you were getting ready to go overseas, was it to-

Alan Frow:
That's right. That's right. Yeah. We jumped on the plane the day after hosting the conference and headed off about a 30-hour flight to Thailand. Our church planted in the north of Thailand about six years ago, so we were with the church there for a week. And then went across to Singapore as well to do ministry with some good friends of ours that planted there 15 years ago from the church we were in in Johannesburg. It was a young couple that left just the two of them. And met their first couple congregation on the plane. And they, 15 years later, just a thriving five congregation church, multilingual in Singapore. So it was a great trip. But I have to say that after a 30-hour flight, my message on self-denial was being sorely tested.

Rick Callahan:
I bet. And of course, the timing was perfect because you came home at the beginning of the Easter season because there's nothing to do then.

Alan Frow:
That's right. Yeah. It was a perfect storm in some ways. We came home after 10 days. And first thing I had to do before preparing for Easter was to do the funeral of a dear man who died in February in our church. A young man, 30 years old, close friend of my son's. They ran an athlete's training company together. And so to do that, coming back was tough, was tough. But Easter obviously, was a real high. And just been now a couple of days catching our breath in Mexico, which has been fantastic. So feeling pretty good.

Rick Callahan:
Good. Well, I'm glad we could take time to connect here today. So just to lay some groundwork. Tell us a little bit about your ministry journey, where you got started, how you ended up in Southern California.

Alan Frow:
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, both my wife and I grew up in a little town called Hillcrest, about 30 minutes outside Durban in South Africa, that's on the East Coast. And high school sweethearts. She got saved in our youth. I grew up in that church. My folks have been leaders in that church for 50 years, so I'm a PK. We left that church after a year of marriage and joined a little church plant in the neighboring town. And at that time, I was finishing a degree doing a lot of worship, writing, recording, and travel with my band. And so yeah, we found ourselves as part of a multiplying church, a church that was planted as part of a multiplying movement, and just found ourselves in that world. So we've only ever known churches that plant churches. And within about two years I was asked to join the staff and the pastoral team. So young worship leader, found himself just really drawn to pastoral ministry and really well mentored.
So by the age 23, I was an elder in our church. And still doing worship, but broadening that ministry. And yeah, we continued in that church for about seven years. Then moved to a larger city called Johannesburg, was on the staff of a larger church and traveling a lot again with worship. And then my wife and I led our first church in Johannesburg 2003. And around that time, we were traveling a lot and kept on landing at a church called Southlands in LA that would host our network's annual North American conference. And we just felt drawn to the church. And after a number of times visiting, the lead pastor sat with us and just said, "Look, we are a multiplying church." They had planted 12 times in 14 years. And which for a medium-sized church was pretty remarkable. And they just sent out a lot of leaders.
He said, "Would you consider handing over your church in Johannesburg and coming and joining us just to bolster the team?" So we took about two years to pray that through and find a leader replacement. And end of 2007, we arrived here. So we've been here 15 years, same church. The first three years, again, on the broader team preaching and doing worship. But then after three years was handed leadership of the church. So it's been 15 years with the church and 12 years leading. We didn't think we'd ever stay here this long. But it's been a privilege to just be in the same town, same congregation, watch it grow. We've multiplied a number of times in the last 10 years, I think six or seven plants. And so that's been wonderful. But we've rarely tried to give ourselves to health more than sort of plants or growth being notches on the belt. We really care about health. But the Lord has grown us, which has been wonderful.

Rick Callahan:
Yeah. So, that's quite a journey and probably lots of culture shock along the way.

Alan Frow:
Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Callahan:
Seeing a bunch of different things. And you mentioned, and that's one of the things that really drew me to Southlands and the Advanced Network, is it's really about health. Because healthy things grow and reproduce. But what have you learned about health, pace of life, rhythm of life along the way? Maybe that was good and not so good.

Alan Frow:
Yeah. That first pastor who took a risk on me as a young 23-year-old worship leader, said to me about 25 years ago. He said, "Alan, God is more interested in your wholeness than your ministry." And to my shame, I took about 20 years to take him seriously. But as C.S. Lewis says in his book, The Problem of Pain, "Pain is God's megaphone. He whispers in our pleasure, but shouts in our pain." And so it took certainly COVID, but even before COVID in 2019... No, it was more 2018, my first sabbatical, starting to go to a spiritual director, and just realize that the 20 years of ministry had taken their toll. And so, not that I totally disregarded things before that. But certainly the last five years have been a much more intense journey of saying, man, wholeness and health is absolutely foundational to ministry.
And just that thing that we often quote, what does it profit a man if he gained the whole world but forfeit his soul? We often think, oh, that's about people getting rich and powerful. But it can also be people who are trying to fulfill the great commission, and plant churches, and make disciples. You can also forfeit your soul doing a very good thing. And so I think the last five years has just been a very intentional journey of saying, what does it mean to have a big vision, to trust God for great things, but not to forfeit your soul while doing it? And so that's been something of the journey. And I think even in terms of the way I try and lead our team and our staff. I know Vanderbloemen is very much about healthy teams and healthy staffs. And I'm fascinated with where the apostle Paul says in first Corinthians four, "You are God's building, you are God's field," to the Corinthians.
And I think very often we look at a church like a building more than a field. Or even a team like a building, more than a field. Or even your soul, we can look like that. And so in America in particular, where we love our formula, we love our recipe, you do this, and that, and that, and then you'll get here. I think because we are ambitious in this country, because we like to dream big, and those are all things I absolutely love. But we can tend to go, okay, you just put these things in place and you'll be here. But actually people are not like that. They're not as simple as that. Churches are not like that. Churches are not just buildings, brick by brick. They are fields.
And so they go through seasons. There's seasons of sowing and there's seasons of harvest. And not every season is a season of harvest. And then there's seasons where a field needs to lie fallow. And so that has been a big lesson for me, is what are those seasons and particularly seasons where a church, or a person, or a team needs to lie fallow, they need to be cultivated for future fruitfulness? And that pushes against every goal or metric because how do you measure health in a fallow season? But I think over years have just had to go, man, unless there's some slower more fallow seasons, you actually run out of health in the soil.

Rick Callahan:
It's so true. I can remember running a marathon a few years ago with my son in learning the hard lesson and training that if you don't fuel properly, no matter how hard you want to finish the race, you can't.

Alan Frow:
Yeah.

Rick Callahan:
You can't. And I was someone who was in local church ministry for over three decades. And for a big portion of it, bought into that narrative that it's all up and to the right, you go, go, go, go. It's for the sake of the kingdom. And if I'm honest, I'll probably have to ask whose kingdom was I really building sometimes?

Alan Frow:
Right. Right.

Rick Callahan:
And as a result got to a place where there was just nothing left in the tank.

Alan Frow:
Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Callahan:
And so have in the last probably decade, really paid attention to those rhythms and things that can help me live a sustainable life, help me live as the image of God I was created to be. And that seems to be running counter to a lot of the success narratives that I bought into. And I think so maybe even subconsciously, we still think about. How would you speak to that?

Alan Frow:
Yeah, I would just agree. I would affirm it. I think we are under an incredible amount of pressure, or we put ourselves under pressure in many ways to produce. And metrics in the life of a church are just so squirrely, aren't they? It's not as simple as you put the work in and then you reap the harvest. Jesus is Lord of the harvest. And sometimes you sow sparingly and reap abundantly, and other times you sow abundantly and reap sparingly. It's a squirrely old thing. And I think I would just come back to Jesus teaching in John 15, "I'm the vine. You are the branches. Apart from me, you can do nothing. But if you abide in me and my words abide in you, you will bear fruit that lasts." And I turn 50 this year. And honestly, that is my vision, to abide in Christ, have his words abide in me, and to bear fruit that lasts.
We do, we find ourselves right now in a season of pretty rapid growth, and that's so wonderful. But I hold it with light hands just because there've been other seasons where I've worked even harder where we haven't experienced that. So just go like, man, let me not fall in love with this. We often talk about momentum. And momentum is a wonderful thing when you have it. It really is. But momentum sometimes can be tricky because I say momentum covers a multitude of sins. It makes you look better than you actually are. And sometimes God in his kindness will remove momentum from you. It's almost like the tide going out in a sea. He'll allow the tide to go out to see what's really underneath. And for us not to see that as a waste of a season, actually God disciplines those he loves. And sometimes he takes us through seasons that feel more like discipline than life and momentum. But actually he's doing it. He's training us in righteousness for the future.
And if you look at the, certainly the evangelical landscape over the last few years, have just been so sad, distressing. The number of people that we would say they're successful, they're fruitful, they impactful. But actually under the momentum they were experiencing was a lot of submerged darkness and brokenness. And so, yeah, for us just to have a vision of both outward and inward change. Ruby Wallace, one of our global team members, said this about three years ago when we were going as a network through a time where two of our founding members had to stand back. And it wasn't for outright immorality, but it was just some of this emotional, relational unhealth patterns of unhealth.
And being a young movement, we're about 10 years old and have grown fairly rapidly. And he just said, "I believe that in this coming season, we need to have a vision of the gospel that advances on two frontiers. On one frontier to the ends of the earth, but on another frontier to the depths of the soul." And we called Advance. And I think our vision was primarily, we want to advance the gospel to the ends of the earth, but we still believe that. But what would it be to see the frontiers of the gospel advance along two frontiers, not just to the ends of the earth, but to the depths of the soul. That, according to Jesus, is fruitfulness and success, and I want to be part of that.

Rick Callahan:
Yeah, that's beautiful.

Christa Neidig:
Hiring is getting harder, and you need the right people to accomplish your mission. Learn how we can help you find the right people for your team today. Contact us to get started. We would love to help.

Rick Callahan:
Yeah, it strikes me as you were describing there the thought that kept going through my head is something that I feel like I had a wrestling match with the Father above. And he eventually, not that he wouldn't win, but I finally relented probably would be the best way to describe it.

Alan Frow:
Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Callahan:
I was finally convinced of the reality that when I look around my church or other aspects, even my family where I'm like, ah, I wanted to blame other people. And the spirit gently whispered, "No, actually they're a reflection of their leader." And so we reproduce who we are. And so it was like, okay, then how do I need to live differently with regard to health? So with that kind a backdrop, as you've taken this journey, what changes in practices, relationships have kind of helped you become a healthier version of yourself?

Alan Frow:
Yeah. Thanks. Appreciate that. I think the one aspect is that I am just more willing to talk about my own limits and limitations. And part of that I suppose, is age. I just realize I don't quite have the energy that I used to as a 40-year-old. But another part of that is even emotional limits and just dignifying that conversation of, "Guys, I feel maxed out." Or, "Guys I don't feel at my best. I don't feel really healthy." I've gone to the same spiritual director for five years now since my sabbatical. And actually interestingly, my wife, it's called Soul Shepherding Bill and Kristi Gaultiere, who are actually both trained therapists. But then years ago met Dallas Willard and they were mentored by him and then started Soul Shepherding. And so it's really more than counseling. It's more they would describe it as sacred friendship, where they come alongside, they listen, they empathize, they might give some wise counsel. But it's actually more helping you to develop spiritual disciplines so that Jesus can meet you in your emotions and in your soul.
And so I talk about that from the pulpit quite often. I was with my counselor, Bill, and I think just dignifying that for people, because quite often counseling has a stigma attached to it. And so the fact that a pastor, and I'm not saying everyone needs to go, but boy, I believe more people need to go than are going. And it's not always therapy that you need to go to. Sometimes it's pastoral counseling, sometimes it's spiritual direction, and sometimes it is therapy. But I think just dignifying that and bringing that into ministry spaces, I think has helped people. And then I would say just rest. Now, I'm not sure if my team would say I'm good at resting, but I'm certainly better than I was.

Rick Callahan:
And they're usually the ones to ask, right?

Alan Frow:
Yeah, that's right.

Rick Callahan:
But we think we're doing well, we should probably get someone to confirm or deny that.

Alan Frow:
Yeah. And I have an executive pastor and an assistant who are really good at saying, "Hey, you need to rest." So for instance, after Easter, my wife and I took off. We just got back last night actually. But one of the things that we've tried to do is to recognize people on our team who need to rest and say, "Hey, come and rest with us." That thing of Jesus come away and rest a while. So sometimes we'll rest by ourselves. But this last two days, we took a couple with us. They're the longest serving pastoral couple on our team, and they've just lost an adoptive son, the guy who I buried a month or so ago. And so we went together. Because I just looked and I just said, man, they haven't grieved well. They haven't had time to grieve.
So we went and we work with an orphanage in Mexico, and we went and planted an olive tree in his memory, and just spent time grieving and celebrating his life. And I just think five years ago, I wouldn't have done that. I would've gone, "Easter. Okay, now it's members meeting this Sunday," carry on the grind. And I think I've started just to go, no, that that'll come. We'll get to that. But actually right now it's a time for the soul soil to lie fallow.

Rick Callahan:
Yeah, it's good. I resonate with that. I think the longer I've been in ministry and the older I get... I think I said someone recently, the things I'm absolutely sure of are fewer, but I'm more sure of those things. And the things that I was like, we have to do these things and do them this way, I just don't really care that much anymore. Just because I think I was addicted to being right and having my way. And actually that was malforming me and the people around me any many ways. So I think there's probably a lot of folks, myself included, that really resonate with this. I need to take better care of myself. I need to live healthier rhythms. What's my pace of life look like?
And like I mentioned, I was one of those guys that was, I lived on the side of sacrifice, and pour yourself out, and go, go, go, go no matter what. And got very crispy as a result. So the pendulum really swung the other way for me. And I need to get my act together because I reproduce who I am, but there also seem to be some pitfalls to that. And that's where, when I heard you talk about this, really my ears perked up. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Alan Frow:
Yeah. Yeah, talking about my spiritual director, there was a moment a few years ago when he and I had a disagreement in the middle of one of our sessions. And he was doing what he always does, saying, "Alan, you need to slow down. Take care of yourself, take care of your soul," et cetera, et cetera. And I responded, "Bill, I hear you on that. But actually I feel like so many people now that I bump into, certainly in our church, on our team, are just saying, 'Well, I can't love others until I first love myself. So I'm going to prioritize self-care for now.'" And I just said, "Bill, this normally means they stop serving. They stop connecting regularly with Christian community. They become very self-absorbed, even self-indulgent." So I just said, "Bill, I'm struggling with how the self-care idea lines up with Jesus' call to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me."
And he and I, there was this sort of tension in the room. And it was interesting. He responded, "Alan, I can. I can see how immature people can abuse that kind of counsel. But you're not that kind of person. You are overly responsible, and I still believe you need to consider giving yourself more self-care." And it was a good response. But it started me on this journey of going, well, what is the healthy tension between self-care and self-denial? And I stumbled over a really helpful essay by John Staat, the inimitable John Staat, who thinks just so clearly. And it was from 30 years ago. So he was just a prophetic thinker in many ways. And he talked about how the church has developed the third great commandment. And he said that many Christians that... So the two great commanders love the Lord your God, with all your heart, soul, strength. And love your neighbor as you love yourself.
And he says, many Christians have developed a third commandment from that, and that is that we can't love others unless we love ourselves. So he just debunked that and said, that is actually bad theology. Even grammatically, he said that Jesus didn't say The first commandment is to love the Lord your God, and the second to love your neighbor, and the third to love yourself. He actually spoke only of the first and second great commandments. And the addition of as yourself really supplies what he called a practical guide to neighbor love. In other words, the way you love yourself, love your neighbor like that. So it's not a command to love yourself. He essentially was saying, do to others what you do to yourself, or what you would have them do to you. And so he just debunked that in a helpful way, in a grammatical way, theological way.
And even just talked about how second Timothy three, that one of the marks of the last days is that people will be lovers of self instead of lovers of God. So of course, there's a healthy love of self where we take care of ourself. God doesn't want us to hate ourselves. God doesn't want to want us to have a bad self-image. But there's an unhealthy love of self that is self-absorption, that is selfish. And so Staat just said, man, we've got to really be careful of getting into a self-affirmation that debunks self-denial. And I would just say that that has been a helpful framework for me because especially in California that is quite therapeutic, and does tend to be quite fragile. That more and more as people discover, the boundaries on their lives become harder and harder, the walls become higher and higher. And it actually can result in isolation and self-absorption.
So just to be able to help people, this is a tension to manage. It's not a problem to solve. And there are times when we've just got to call people to say, no, actually like to follow Jesus. You look at Jesus' life. Did he withdraw for a time with his disciples? Absolutely. But remember that time in John six when he withdrew after. I mean, he was grieving the death of John. He was hungry, he was exhausted. And the crowds followed him there and it said, Jesus moved with compassion, saw the crowds because they were harassed and helpless. Like sheep without a shepherd. So actually he allowed people to invade his margins of self-care. And I think that's the question I would be asking people, as you discover self-care, are you able to allow people to invade those margins from time to time?

Rick Callahan:
Yeah. That's really good. Because I even think about as you're describing what's known as the golden rule, you'll love others as you love yourself, I think Jesus even upped it. A former mentor, he said, he actually meant upped it to the platinum rule where he said, "Well, actually, it's probably better if you love others the way I've loved you."

Alan Frow:
Right. Right. Totally.

Rick Callahan:
Because if the measure is us, that always is going to end up in the ditch at some point.

Alan Frow:
Right. No, that's true. That's true. And that is totally points to self-sacrificial, self-giving love if it's loving others as Christ has loved us. Absolutely. Yeah. So there's a high bar. And I think if you look at... We starting a series post Easter called Followers of the Way. And just what made the Early Christians distinctive as this counter cultural community. And one of the things that made them distinctive was that they were incredibly sacrificial in many of the early plagues and these sorts of things. It was only Christians who would pray and take care of the dying who were infected. So they had a self-sacrifice that was compelling. And so yeah, I do think that the pendulum has swung, as you've said. I think it was Luther who said, history is like a drunk man that falls off one side of the horse into the ditch, and then gets up and falls off the other side.
Well, I think we have fallen off the other side. And so how do we stay on the horse of self-care, but also self-denial? And I think the only way is to be in authentic community where people actually have permission to say, "Hey, you need to slow down or otherwise, hey, you need to pick up the pace. You're becoming self-indulgent." And you know what's interesting?
I mean, I say this a little bit tongue in cheek. But the kinds of people that come to me and say, "Oh, I just need to take a break from loving others. I need to learn to love myself more. I just don't love myself enough." I mean, often those people, they are pretty obsessed with themselves. They only talk about themselves. And I don't want to make light of the fact that some people really struggle with self-loathing and poor self images, and Jesus wants to heal that. But there is such a thing as being so self-absorbed and self obsessive. And I found one of the just best things to get my eyes off of my own issues is to serve others. And often in doing that, Jesus deals with my stuff.

Rick Callahan:
Yeah, the image that comes to mind as you described that, and I've shared this with folks too in similar situations, is if we're... Think of yourself as a sponge. If all you do is absorb, and absorb, and absorb, which is important, but never get wrung out, you actually get really slimy and moldy.

Alan Frow:
Totally. Absolutely.

Rick Callahan:
I mean, you look at the rhythm of Jesus, how he lived. He spent time with the Father, then he spent time with his friends. And then together they went out to be agents of change for the sake of the gospel. The agents through whom the gospel change things like, "Hey, let's show the world what it looks like for Jesus to actually be our king." And there's a totally different way. So I think all three are essential. But we do get so self-absorbed in one or the other sometimes. And I've seen people like, "Oh, I just want to just hang out with Jesus." Well, that's great, but that's not real life. Actually, Jesus wants to hang out with you in the mess. Not when the lights are right and the music's perfect. And he wants you to go out and get wrung out. But he also doesn't want you to go out and try and fix the world without him. That's going to be the bad too.

Alan Frow:
Yeah, that's right.

Rick Callahan:
So it's all those kinds of elements where we think, okay, how do I walk with the Father in the midst of all these things and live the way of Jesus? I mean, it's that cruciform life and how do we live that tension? So I recall you actually, and it may be putting you on the spot, you had a slide of a number of tensions that we need to think through to live. Any of those you might be able to share with us?

Alan Frow:
Yeah, I mean, I think they're those classic tensions of grace and truth, and word and spirit. These are the tensions that we try to live as a church. I think even the tensions of structure and flexibility. Any healthy church has got both the tension of community and mission. Very often, it's interesting. We are experiencing some significant growth in the last year, probably have grown by about 20%, which has been so just surprising and wonderful. But it's so interesting how old timers just... I mean, even good leaders will come and say, "I just don't recognize all these people. Who are they?" And almost resenting these new people that have come because they are going to disrupt the warmth of community. And because we have planted congregations, we're multi congregation church, there's a tendency to moralize size. To go like, well, this is what a family communal church will look like and feel like.
But actually, mission always puts pressure on community. You look at the early church, 3,000 saved and added in one day. So during a season like this with Easter where numbers spike, et cetera, you've got to celebrate that and just say, this is a real season of mission. So many visitors. Now, how do we welcome these visitors into community? And are we willing to hold that tension of community on mission? And that means that actually our deep friendships, we're willing for them to be interrupted in a sense for the sake of mission. Yeah. I mean, think those are some of the tensions. I think, and you will know this as a vineyard guy, historically, the tension between the now and the not yet. That we are trusting God for his kingdom to break in now with healing, and salvation, and restoration. But we know that it's only when Christ returns, that's Acts three says that he will restore all things.
And in Tolkin's words, then everything sad will come untrue. And so we live within that tension of a growing kingdom breaking in, but actually not fully come. And I think that's why we have to take care of ourselves, Rick, because until Christ returns, we'll live with the broken world and we'll live with broken souls. And Christ is at work restoring things. But actually, man, we need to a rest because this world can beat us up.

Rick Callahan:
Yeah, it sure can.

Alan Frow:
Yeah.

Rick Callahan:
Well, our time's coming to an end, and I want to honor the time we talked about sharing together. I know you wrote a book last year called Psalms for the Saturated Soul that I think might be really helpful resource for folks. Can you just talk a little bit about that and then we'll land the plane here?

Alan Frow:
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting you used the idea analogy of a sponge that needs to be wrung out. The Psalms for the Saturated Soul is really coming from that place. It focuses on Psalm 42, but not exclusively. But the whole idea of Psalm 42 is this guy panting as the deer pence for streams of living water. So he is thirsty, and yet he says, "These things I remember as I pour out my soul." And when I first read that, I was like, what is going on here? How come he's thirsty, but he, he's pouring out his soul. What's going on? And it was only as I read Martin Lloyd Jones' book called Spiritual Depression, that it made sense, where it's not that he's empty, he's just full of the wrong stuff. He's saturated like a sponge, and he needs to be wrung out in order to be filled with Jesus' living water.
And so really, it's emotional health on the bottom shelf for people. It's helping people to realize that the Psalms are not just the songbook of God's people. They are the emotional health book of God's people. And this massive array of different emotions are found there. And God is revealed as attentive and compassionate. He keeps track of our sorrows. He catches every tear that we cry in a bottle. And that he restores our soul. And so it's really walking people through, not a formula, but actually a process of emptying our souls through lament, through confession, through forgiveness. And then learning as well to listen to our souls to ask real questions. Because so often the presenting emotion is not actually the thing behind the thing. To listen to them and then to speak the word of God to our souls in order that they might be filled.
So yeah, it's been a book that seems to have been helpful. And I think particularly for people beginning the journey of emotional health, self-care, it's an easy read. It's about two hours. It's 130 pages. And people seemingly have found it really helpful. We're just in Thailand, they're translating into Thai, which is wonderful just hearing that it's cross cultures and people are connecting with it in other nations. We fly out to South Africa next month to do a conference around it. And I think people around the world are going, "Man, I have to find wholeness for my soul." And Jesus is our great shepherd of our souls.

Rick Callahan:
Yeah. Amen. Yeah. Again, the book's called Psalms for the Saturated Soul. And Alan Frow is our guest. You can find it on Amazon, other places you can find books. And so we're actually having this conversation the week between right after Easter. So a lot of pastors and church leaders are probably on a high. And then as we know how the rhythms work, particularly here in the States, it's not going to be feeling like Easter for a while again.

Alan Frow:
Yeah, you're going to steal yourself. You've got to guard your heart because next Sunday's not going to be like last Sunday. It's really important. I was actually just driving into the office this morning thinking about that, just going, man, we celebrate what God did. But how do we actually now enter a different season that's not necessarily the multitude to where we are able to take care of the one and still do it with joy.

Rick Callahan:
Yeah. Because again, we kind of get to past Mother's Day. And then at least where I live, we start going, "Well, I guess we'll..." People start cycling in and out, and you're like, where'd everyone go?

Alan Frow:
Right. Right. Right.

Rick Callahan:
So with that thought in mind and just living in this tension, would you pray for pastors and leaders that would be listening to this day that they could just experience the nearness of the Father in this season?

Alan Frow:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lord Jesus, we just want to take heed of your words, that you are the vine and we are the branches. And that apart from you, we cannot do anything that will bear lasting fruit. But we thank you for your promise that if we abide in you and your words abide in us, that we will bear fruit that lasts. And so I pray for every listener. I ask that your Holy Spirit would help us to abide in you. I pray, Lord, that you would help us to do the real work of union with you. We pray, Father, that you would heal our union with you. There's so many things that interrupt our union with you. And very often even working for you interrupts our union. And we repent of trying to work apart from abiding. So I pray for your grace on all of us.
And Holy Spirit, I pray that you would lead us to intimacy that produces fruitfulness. I pray that you would help us to be in step with you. Jesus, you said your yoke is easy, your burden is light. I pray that we would be in step with you, knowing when to work, knowing when to sacrifice, and then knowing when to rest and take care of ourselves. I pray that you would help us to manage this tension. We thank you, Jesus, for your model of working hard, of saying, it's my food to do the will of the Father. And yet you often withdrew to a solitary place, and sometimes even with your disciples. Help us to be interruptable. But Lord, help us to have rhythms and boundaries that actually conserve our soul and preserve its life. And thank you so much for Rick and his ministry, and the ministry of Vanderbloemen. We just bless it. I pray that it would be from a place of abiding to. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Rick Callahan:
Amen. It's been so good to reconnect. Thank you so much for your time.

Alan Frow:
Thanks, Rick. Appreciate you.

Christa Neidig:
Thanks for listening to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderbloemen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, vanderbloemen.com to learn more. And subscribe to our Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcast. Keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.